Wolfe Power Club
The Wolfe Power Club Podcast is an exciting platform for exploring crucial topics in the energy sector! With a focus on investment trends, governmental policies, and the evolving landscape of energy consumption, it promises to provide valuable insights for both industry professionals and the general public.
Host Alex Wolfe's background as an Energy director and experience in opening the first HVO Truck Bunker in Britain undoubtedly brings a wealth of expertise to the discussions. By engaging with guests who possess diverse perspectives and opinions on energy-related issues, the podcast is likely to offer a well-rounded exploration of the sector's challenges and opportunities.
Every guest will answer the big 3 questions:
- Where are you investing in Energy Industry?
- What do you want from the Government?
- What do you want Energy Customers to do?
Wolfe Power Club
Nuclear era begins! Atlantic Council talks all things Small Nuclear Reactors & Fukushima | S1EP44
In this episode, host Alex and Wolfe Power Club’s Director of Government Relations Max Austin dive into the future of Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) and their potential to meet climate goals while being economically viable. They speak to Atlantic Council’s Nuclear Energy Policy Initiative Director Jennifer Gordon on the U.S. Department of Energy backing NuScale Power's design for deployment by 2029, understanding whether this timeline is realistic and how SMRs could create a global market, especially in developing regions. They discuss the recent insights from International Energy Week, where IEA's Fatih Birol highlighted 2024 as a pivotal year for nuclear energy, examining the factors that could drive this resurgence.
See our first Atlantic Council episode, where we interviewed Senior Director of Global Energy Centre Landon Derentz on the insights from the IEA Energy Security Summit's key outputs: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/wolfe-power-club/id1768249172?i=1000705481375
Atlantic Council website: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org
Atlantic Council TV: https://www.atlanticcouncil.tv/
Jennifer T. Gordon is the director of the Nuclear Energy Policy Initiative and the Meyer and Dolores Poneman chair for nuclear energy policy at the Atlantic Council’s Global Energy Center. Gordon was a co-director of the Atlantic Council Task Force on US Nuclear Energy Leadership. From 2016 to 2018, she was a senior energy policy analyst at National Journal’s Network Science Initiative. Gordon served as a Central Intelligence Agency political analyst from 2005 to 2008, and she has also worked as a freelance writer and TV commentator.
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- A focus on investment trends, governmental policies, and the evolving landscape of energy consumption, it promises to provide valuable insights for both industry professionals and the general public.
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Aim Recruit is an expert recruiter for transport, logistics and energy positions.
What's shaping up to be nuclear energy policy in this Trump administration, there's really a strong through line Everybody wants energy security. I think Japan has also experienced energy insecurity since shutting down its reactors in the aftermath of Fukushima. I think when we think about next generation reactors, whether that is SMRs, which can provide on and off grid power, we need all of the above for the future of decarbonisation.
Speaker 2:Ladies and gentlemen, it's wonderful to go across the Atlantic today over to Washington to interview one of our elite people in the nuclear industry. But before we introduce our great guest you might not always see him in front of the camera, but behind the camera our Director of Government Relations, max Austin, joins us today. Government Relations Max Austin joins us today because our guest speaker is Jennifer Gordon from the Atlantic Council, one of the world's leading nuclear experts. Jennifer, welcome to the Wolf Power Club.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:It's great to be here, max, are you happy to be here?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm particularly pleased to see Jennifer. I mean we go back to the dark days of COVID in the build-up to COP26, something we can talk a bit about later. But it's been fantastic to get you on the podcast, jennifer, particularly to talk about nuclear energy, not just in the US but around the world at a difficult time.
Speaker 2:So very positive time, though, as well, and we're going to get straight into it, jennifer, as well. And we're going to get straight into it, jennifer. One of the big issues over in the UK has been almost this euphoria about the potential of small nuclear reactors. Perhaps the rest of the podcast we'll call it SMRs. Not all of our listeners will know what they are, but the obvious questions that sort of comes across to all of us in the world of energy is well, do they actually help meet climate change, because that's what they've been billed as? Is this this great saviour and the goals? Are they actually economically viable? Because, although I love nuclear power and for those who are listening in, we are completely biased on the podcast I spent most of my childhood at nuclear power stations, as my father was head of spent fuels at British Energy. But is it economically viable? And then the final bit is deployment, because there's one thing of a great idea, there's one thing that's a business case that works on paper, but will deployment happen? So what's the reality of SMRs, jennifer?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. So let me take a quick step back and just speak first of all about nuclear more broadly. So I think we tend to think of nuclear reactors, as you know, first of all the existing fleet, which are the large, generally light water reactors. Large light water reactors are the backbone of a decarbonized grid in pretty much any country that has already deployed them and has them as part of their power sector. And so I think when we think about next generation reactors, whether that is SMRs, which can provide on and off grid power, also advanced, you know, micro reactors that can be mobile, can be stationary, also can provide power off-grid for heavy industrial uses, I think we need all of the above for the future of decarbonization Again, whether that's power sector decarbonization on the one hand, or off-grid decarbonization hard to decarbonize, hard to abate industries. So, yes, absolutely, smrs, microreactors, are part of that suite of nuclear technologies.
Speaker 1:In terms of economic viability, I think one issue and it's very difficult to really assess the cost of nuclear because you're also getting into things like the cost of transmission or the cost of the full life cycle. But I think when you get into it the imperative to decarbonize, the imperative to have energy security, which nuclear also brings, and these are things that I think help as you're thinking through the cost. Again, tough to think through the actual cost of next generation reactors because most countries have not yet deployed them and so you know a lot of it. We're going to have to wait and see, you know, how those dollars actually add up.
Speaker 3:Can I ask a question, jennifer, about what the situation is in the US? Obviously a change of government, a change of administration, but still a continued commitment to nuclear. What's your assessment of the US Department of Energy's approach to deploying SMRs in America?
Speaker 1:I think one thing to remember it's not just the Department of Energy, it is also Congress, it's our legislation, it's the policy is the only thing that Republicans and Democrats agree on. I think this is actually true, because if you look at nuclear energy policy in the first Trump administration, nuclear energy policy in the Biden administration, and I think what is shaping up and of course it's early, but what's shaping up to be nuclear energy policy in this Trump administration, there's really a strong through line. Trump administration, there's really a strong through line. Everybody wants energy security, everybody wants public-private partnerships, everyone, I think right now, wants to pass bipartisan legislation, and so you know, there's a lot of continuity. There's a lot of continuity even in the people.
Speaker 1:You know we're seeing a lot of familiar faces right now coming back from the first Trump administration who supported really, really great policies on nuclear energy.
Speaker 1:You know we're seeing a lot of familiar faces right now coming back from the first Trump administration who supported really, really great policies on nuclear energy, you know, four years ago. We're seeing a lot of them come back now. So I think there's a lot of optimism, with one caveat that I'll share with you, which is that I think I think that there are policies right now being put into place that touch nuclear energy but that are not directly nuclear energy policies, so like tariffs, for example, you know, policies that possibly cut funding, you know, to educational institutions. Things like that that I think are going to make it difficult to, number one, build reactors here in the United States, sell reactors overseas, and then two that could have implications, serious implications, for supply chain and then also for workforce. So I think we're keeping an eye closely on nuclear energy policy in this administration, but also on what I think we're all calling these adjacent policy areas that I think we haven't had to follow quite as closely until now.
Speaker 2:What we do know, though, is that, whether it's on the politics side of either party in the US or individual states, america, like myself, loves business, and my excitement over SMRs is that it feels like we could, for the first time, have a bit of a global market, and I was just wondering your thoughts about this idea of this potential export of them around the world and, potentially, how manufacturers could power transitioning or developing economies, which say wasn't a possibility when you had major nation infrastructure projects that were nuclear, that were very country specific, whereas this looks like could be a global market. Is that a fair assessment?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, I think you know. One issue to consider is that I think the large light water reactors which we all love, love the current fleet, love where it's operating, but one issue with it is that it's not, you know, large reactors are not necessarily appropriate to every country's grid, and so you have, you know, especially in a lot of developing countries, where a large light water reactor, if you built it, it would just completely overwhelm the grid, and so you need to look at reactors that are more in that 300 megawatt class, so SMRs, or even again, micro reactors that have off-grid applications. And so I think you see a lot of countries again, especially in the global south, that are interested in next generation reactors. You see countries, I think, that want both. For example, I was just in Poland last week. Poland obviously wants the large light water reactors. They also want the SMRs, and there are applications, I think, globally, especially in industrialized economies for process heat. There are applications, I think, globally, you know, especially in industrialized economies for process heat.
Speaker 1:So I think you know we're seeing not just newcomer countries, we're also seeing new types of demand. We're seeing in the United States and abroad and I'm sure this is maybe scooping your next question. But we're seeing new types of customers that we haven't seen before, because the traditional customers for nuclear power have, of course, been the utilities, and now we're seeing the tech companies that wanted to power their data centers, wanted to power AI operations. We're seeing industrial customers as well, like steel companies, mining companies, oil and gas companies that want advanced reactors and micro reactors to power their operations you know, in the Permian Basin, for example. So we're just seeing this enormous and incredibly diverse array of countries and also industries and sectors that have really never thought about nuclear, and they're thinking about it now.
Speaker 2:So that does bring me on to nicely, obviously great listener, great friend of the podcast, the IEA's Fatih Bali. When he came to London and he was speaking in February at International Energy Week, he basically said in his keynote speech this is the year of nuclear. He said in the last 12 months there's never, ever, been more power both used and produced by nuclear across the world and they are seeing a sort of big uptake. You've obviously touched on a few areas but looking back at that last 12 months, was it things like data centres that triggered that real positive reaction to using nuclear? Because I know nuclear sometimes has great years, challenging years, but it sounds like a real positive place to using nuclear. Because I know nuclear sometimes has great years, challenging years, but it sounds like a real positive place to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, something that we're seeing and also so two weeks ago I was in Japan, and so it's difficult to talk about the nuclear story and the Japan story without talking about nuclear reactors that have restarted. We're seeing some of that as well here in the United States. So restarts with Three Mile Island, with the Palisades, and so I think that's something that's really, really exciting that you have these reactors that are perfectly good and they've just been kind of sitting and waiting for their moment. I think their moment has come and it's great to see reactors restart. Also great to see in the United States we've extended the lifetimes of a number of our reactors in our current fleet. So we're really, I think, trying to make the most out of the assets that exist, while also walking and chewing gum at the same time, looking at next generation. Walking and chewing gum at the same time, looking at next generation you know, at Gen 3 and Gen 4 reactors as well.
Speaker 3:Just sort of building on your visit to Japan, where I know, when we had our pre-COP26 discussion, jennifer discussing in parts of how do you win over the public on the nuclear question, and in Japan, for obvious reasons, in 2011, there's been maybe public hesitancy, scepticism of nuclear as part of the energy mix, and in 2023, ipsos did a poll of 24 countries that found that only 38% of adults supported nuclear, and that seems to me to be at odds with the 72% that also support the energy, the swift phase out of fossil fuels and the energy transition. So how do we win over different populations to accept that nuclear is safe, that it's reliable and that it's increasingly essential if you want to move to a low carbon energy mix? Yeah, that it's reliable and that it's increasingly essential if you want to move to a low carbon energy mix.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question. So you know, one thing is I do think there is potentially a generational divide in public opinion on nuclear. So I've heard and haven't seen the statistic myself, but I've heard that even in Germany there's a generational divide and the younger generation is interested in nuclear and has actually seen the results of decommissioning perfectly good nuclear reactors and is unhappy with those results. One country, which maybe you know, germany, may be kind of an extreme example, but I think you know.
Speaker 1:One other thing that I think is a factor is when you have and again I believe there are statistics on this as well that when you have communities that live closer to a nuclear power plant, they actually tend to be more in favor of nuclear energy than communities that live far away from a nuclear power plant and don't really know what it is. But they've, you know, heard scary stories or they watched a Netflix special, and so that's their only experience with it. Where you know, alex, I'm going to pick on you but you have somebody who's actually grown up around nuclear and they tend to turn out to be pretty pro-nuclear, surprise, surprise. And so, for example, in a country like Romania, surprise, surprise. And so, for example, in a country like Romania that's been operating Canadian reactors for decades, I think the approval rating for nuclear energy the public opinion is something like 87%, which is like off the charts, and so the more nuclear you have, the more you tend to support it.
Speaker 3:Can I just ask just a follow up, looking back to those days before COP26, where we're all locked up and you and I were part of a group that were trying to make the case for nuclear to be part of the broader discussion on tackling climate change and reducing emissions and I remember you, randolph Bell, were sort of pulling your hair out because there nearly wasn't going to be a discussion on nuclear at COP26.
Speaker 3:I think it only came about September, october it was really late in the day and I think in maybe a European context, what has changed since COP26 in Glasgow is the war in Ukraine and, as energy policy has now become a national security issue, nuclear has undergone somewhat of a renaissance. I think Finland in particular very strong anti-nuclear tradition, particularly in their Green Party, who are now advocating for investment into nuclear technologies because they see it as a matter of national security, national defense. They see it as a matter of national security, national defence, and I suppose my question to you is reflecting on really how, in the last three years, nuclear, as it's been merged with other policy areas like defence, like national security, has really undergone something of a renaissance. To the extent that you know, last week we had in the UK which London Council's at, you know, a summit on the future of energy security. Be interested in your thoughts on that.
Speaker 1:Max, thanks so much. I think. Well, two things. One, you know, it always kind of is painful for me when I hear people outside of the nuclear energy industry but in the energy sector, talking about how you can't have energy security and decarbonization at the same time. And you know, that's when I sort of start jumping up and down and raising my hand and saying, yes, you can, because you can have nuclear, and then you can have both and you don't have to choose.
Speaker 1:You know, I think your point about COP26 is a really good one. And so you know, in my own personal experience and I think you were with us at the, at the castle, so, and if you remember the castle in Glasgow but I mean just geographically it was so the castle was where the Atlantic Council ran our programming during COP26. And I wish that all of you listeners could have joined us, but we did, you know, at least a day of programming fully devoted to nuclear energy policy. But the castle was about a 45 minute drive outside of Glasgow and you know you drive through these like beautiful fields but you're really, really in the middle of nowhere. And then, only two years later, we were all in Dubai at COP 28.
Speaker 1:And, of course, nuclear energy at COP28 was front and center and it was in the green zone, it was in the blue zone, it was, you know, it was off campus, so to speak, but it was everywhere, you know, all at once, and the difference for me was just so, so tremendous. And you really saw and I think again, I think you're right, absolutely that Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine really, I think, made people realize that, oh, we also need energy security and nuclear is one way to get it. But you know, I think in those two years that difference was just so tremendous. And I think that the importance too of nuclear being accepted front and center at the world's premier climate conference, you know, went so far beyond rhetoric and I think it actually had real life, tangible implications, you know, for things like nuclear energy then being included in Canada's green bond system, you know, and so making it okay to like nuclear, both from an energy security perspective and then also from a climate decarbonization perspective as well.
Speaker 2:It leads nicely to the thing, and I think that whole thing of international relations, acceptance, that whole thing about where you start, and I actually think you're right. I mean I know we joke about my childhood nuclear centers for our listeners who don't know my dad was a nuclear engineer for 40 years and we spent most of my childhood and he had a lovely childhood in the summer in vienna as he, as he, worked one of the very big organizations over there. But I think that, um, one thing I really would ask anyone that's on here that's an educator, is that we need to get more of this into schools and universities. So, like, I know certainly that I was lucky, I had a father in the nuclear industry. So when we did like an energy project, um, I remember the pro I remember so clearly from primary school, even though it's a long time ago, where, like, the teacher was like, oh, these terrible towers, and she was actually showing cooling towers. So I said no, no, that's wrong. Like I've been to every visit, that's a steam, that there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2:So my dad came in, did a talk and by the end of that talk there was, like you know, 200 children who, like nuclear is great went home, told their parents and then at university, um, when, um, I did a project with people on planet when I was, when I was involved in the students union, we managed to get one of the big energy companies it was a nuclear company to sponsor the fair and it just gave a whole different slant, because the committee meeting that started before the fair was that someone said something incorrect about nuclear. This is terrible. And until I raised it and we got a sponsor, suddenly it changed the narrative. So I just wondered a bit, jennifer, before we go into some of the uk specific issues, um, what does the atlantic council want to achieve in terms of because obviously you are not for profit, but you guys have a huge voice in energy and just a little bit more about your day job? It'd be great just to tell our listeners and what the atlantic council is trying to do on nuclear momentum sure well.
Speaker 1:So first of all let me say I think we're all jealous of your childhood. Summers in Vienna sound incredible, you know, I would say and I'll talk in a minute about the Atlantic Council's work but just a caveat that we are, you know, much, much more at the policy level into schools. Although I would certainly happily go into my own children's school and talk about nuclear energy policy, I haven't been invited yet. But the American Nuclear Society does an incredible K through 12 program, so kindergarten through senior year of high school, where they do try to teach nuclear energy, you know, at grade appropriate levels. You know they're not teaching, like you know, nuclear engineering to kindergartners, but you know I think programs like that are really, really important From an Atlantic Council perspective. You know where we spend most of our time and kind of my own day to day is speaking with people again at that policy level.
Speaker 1:So, decision makers in the US federal government, we do a lot of state-based work in the United States as well, because even though we are a foreign affairs think tank and we really come at nuclear energy from a national security perspective, from a global exports perspective, we also believe that it is very difficult, if not impossible to export something and a technology that you're not first licensing and deploying at home, and so we're trying to build that through line from the domestic work that's going on right now in the United States to our international work. So we do a lot of talking with state policymakers, state legislatures, state policymakers, state legislatures, universities, which have just an incredible reach in their states. So you know just, for example, university of Tennessee and that system, the University of Utah system, that are really, really doing phenomenal work to bring their own state stakeholders together, and then we try to engage and help where we can fantastic.
Speaker 2:So, as I say, I think you can tell that the podcast is kind of fanboys of uh, of nuclear, um, but we also, like many of our listeners, ask we don't stray away from the difficult topics and the difficult issues. Now the following is a very uk specific issue, so I just put that out there. But it's probably a classic example of when in a country there was a big nuclear movement, say 40, 50 years ago, built massive infrastructure and then, whether it's through politics, economics, a mixture of the two, there's then been a struggle of investment. But our Sellafield nuclear power site back in 2023 was put under special measures because essentially there was an audit done. Was put under special measures because essentially there was an audit done and it was from a mixture of both physical and cyber security. Safety concerned that basically it wasn't safe enough. This February, thankfully, it came out of special measures and there was a commitment to that.
Speaker 2:But I was just wondering sort of on a physical or cyber security base because you know we cover energy security quite a bit on this podcast what does nuclear need to do? Because obviously you've got a mixture of ages. I can imagine the newer stuff is much easier to plan for because it's been built in the era when this type of stuff happens. But some of the equipment that's out there is obviously from a different generation and from a cost, or cyber side has probably got to be developed. I was just wondering on the actual security side, whether it's physical or whether it's cyber. What should the nuclear industry be doing?
Speaker 1:From a very sort of broad perspective. I think some of the things that are the most important in terms of ensuring security for the nuclear energy industry are ensuring that we have a culture and that we're fostering a culture of transparency, that we have whistleblower protections and that there's accountability and you know. And, again, making sure that people know if they raise an alarm somewhere, you know there's not going to be retaliation, and so I think you know, having those measures in place, having obviously you want good governance, you know, in a country, and I think that that will ensure you know. And also, obviously, the role of the regulator. And it's been, I would say, a little bit disturbing to hear over the last I don't know a few months, or I guess maybe the voices are always there, but they seem to be growing louder, you know, people speaking against national regulatory authorities in whichever country we're talking about, because I think that having a strong, independent regulatory body, again, to me that's the baseline and the bedrock of ensuring that you have safety and security in your nuclear programs.
Speaker 2:I think you're right. With nuclear, the community is very good at working together great engineering minds finding ways to actually get the maximum life out of assets, develop assets and make them safe with good regulators. One of the other difficult challenges with nuclear is funding, and I'm going to use the UK example because I know it well. So back in my downstream oil days I opened a fuel depot in Anglesey, which, for international listeners don't know, is the north of Wales and it's the main port and coastline between mainland UK and the Republic of Ireland, so it's basically where the big transport ferries go across Perfect for nuclear. You've got wonderful sea there for cooling attributes and so on, and it was going to be Britain's probably largest ever nuclear project in terms of output of power, in that it was going to supply 6% of uk power and then in 2020 it'd been going on for many years they formed colleges, there were people studying nuclear professions and and so on.
Speaker 2:Then suddenly a mixture of covid, a mixture of the economic environments, mixture of financing um hitachi pulled their um investment and planned investment and what was going to be a 16 billion pound project and was going to employ thousands of people didn't happen and it really was a hit for the nuclear industry in Britain. So although we've talked about many positives today, that is some of the backdrop in the last decade they're dealing with and I was just wondering therefore, like financially, how do we get a place that more nuclear stuff doesn't just stay as a beautiful cad drawing, with a sort of excitement when it's launched, it actually ends up as an operating part of the power grid and and delivers for nations? Because if a first world country, g7 nation like uk, is struggling, I can only imagine what the effects are in other parts of the world. So just wondering what your thoughts are to avoid another Anglesey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, I'm not going to lie to you, nuclear is expensive. We all know that. The upfront capital costs, you know, hugely expensive. I mean, obviously the idea is, once it's built it pays itself back. You know, pays for itself.
Speaker 1:But I think you know, getting over that hurdle is the challenge. It's especially difficult and you know, and this gets both in terms of building but also in terms of, you know, export financing difficult when you have a country like in the United States. You know export financing difficult when you have a country like in the United States where you know the industry is fully private. And then you look again kind of on the global. You know, in the global market we're competing and again this is an exports but competing with countries like Russia and China that of course have state owned nuclear enterprises, and so that becomes, you know, a very, very difficult competition and it's not a level playing field. I think you know whether we're talking about, you know, the UK example that you just gave and kind of you know how do we build domestically, or talking about how do we export and compete against state-owned enterprises. You know, in Russia and China I think a lot of it is going to be public, private partnerships. A lot of it could be co-financing nuclear nuclear builds with our partners and allies from around the world.
Speaker 1:You know, and and I think we have to really think through all of the different tools in the toolbox, you know, and tools that we may not be using. So, you know, in the United States, you know, in our context, looking at, you know, for example, the US Export Import Bank, which has played a strong role over the last several years but had only been reauthorized in, I think, 2019 or early 2020. The US Development Finance Corporation also only lifted its nuclear project finance ban back in I think, 2020. So it's only been relatively recently in the United States that we've had, you know, even the whole suite of tools available to us actually be available. I think, looking at the World Bank, you know, and looking at them kind of as a next step for lifting, trying to urge the World Bank to reconsider its own ban on nuclear project finance, I think would be a good next step. But again, I think we have to bring all of our assets to bear because it is a tough hurdle to get over at first.
Speaker 3:From one nuclear stereotype to the other. One is money, the other is safety, and I was just reflecting, jennifer, talking about perceptions. Childhood perceptions of nuclear Mine was certainly shaped by the Simpsons and seeing Homer Simpson go. As I think, most of my generation, and particularly you, don't come from an energy world where I don't know how many times Springfield suffered as a consequence of nuclear meltdown, but there is some sort of it's a flippant comment, but there is some truth in that, and I'm just conscious that you've just been I don't know whether it's deliberate or serendipity to Fukushima and to Warsaw. Obviously, fukushima famously 2011, as I said earlier, had its own nuclear problems and Warsaw suffered the fallout in 1986 from Chernobyl. I'm just really interested in what you think your view is of the Polish and Japanese public's perception of nuclear and what their involvement is as states in the nuclear, in nuclear as part of their energy mix. You know, 40 years on in Poland's case, 15 years on in Japan's.
Speaker 1:You know, it seems that there is a tremendous desire in Poland for nuclear energy and again that's kind of an all above all of the above approach to nuclear energy, both in terms of the agreement with Westinghouse for the large light water reactors and then also the GE BWX 300 project that's going on as well, and so there seems again to be this tremendous drive in Poland for nuclear that may well be shaped, especially right now now, by Russia's invasion of Ukraine, although I think that that drive actually started, you know, longer ago than just 2022. You know, I think in Japan, opinion again is changing. I think that my understanding is that the restarts of the reactors is something that's being welcomed. I think Japan has also experienced energy insecurity since shutting down its reactors in the aftermath of Fukushima.
Speaker 1:And I have to say as well, just on a very personal note, seeing Fukushima for the first time was, first of all, just incredibly moving. You know how much the site has gone through, while at the same time, you know Japan has been working to restart its other reactors. So just knowing that that's only been 14 years, it's really just phenomenally impressive. So I recommend as well to you, in case you haven't had a chance, and then to all of your listeners if anyone has the opportunity to go and see fukushima themselves, um, do it. It's a once in a lifetime experience I think that's a great recommendation.
Speaker 2:And before the trouble started in ukraine, I did actually go and see chernobyl and actually what I saw was a um work starting around the power industry. Again, obviously, for our listeners, what's happening in ukraine at the moment, we're fully support the ukrainian side but it also showed actually how, after something so terrible, it regenerates. People still want to engage in it, people still you know um, and it was fascinating. You could, you know. We sort of did our tour around and, uh, we had dinner at the site and what was also fascinating was you got um a geiger meeting. You got to go and, interestingly, when you went around the blast zone, it wasn't actually that bit that was the most radioactive now. It was almost like eight, nine miles away where river streams had gone to natural basins and there was a children's nursery. It wasn't very close, obviously, it hasn't been a children's nursery for 40 years, but I found it fascinating. It was 40 years, but I found it fascinating. It was a real education.
Speaker 2:As you say, at these events you both see how this stuff works and I think my father said that to me about fukushima was that actually, as you said, a lot of good decision making happened in a challenging environment to actually bring it. And now you've gone full circle and you're seeing the, the rebuild and going into that. Um, I'm going to go into the uh quickfire questions. Um, only short answers, uh, that we're looking for. So if you're investing time or money in the energy industry right now, where would you invest it?
Speaker 1:I think I would invest in on the buyer side right now, or I would, or I would create a magical um, you know fund that invested a little bit in each of the company of the reactor developers. But I think what's really interesting right now is to see the buyer side, and so, again, what that means is the Amazon, google, facebook, meta, those kinds of companies that want nuclear energy to power their operations, but also oil and gas companies, also Nucor, steel, you know, companies that are really really forward leaning and thinking very seriously, very thoughtfully, about where they're going to get their energy to power all of their operations.
Speaker 2:If you're an entrepreneur right now in 2025, do you think you can come a sort of billionaire, millionaire from the nuclear industry in 2025?
Speaker 1:I don't think that there is any get rich quick scheme out there I like that. Buy your nuclear gigawatts now. Trade it fast. It could be the next crypto. That'd be great. But in all seriousness, I think nuclear is something that you know. We're looking at at reactors with lifespans of 100 years, um, and so if you're a nuclear um, you're playing the long game and you're not a day trader I'm gonna pass max the next quick fire what do you want from the governments of the united states, the uk and the EU over the next 12 months?
Speaker 1:First of all, I want to see far more cooperation and recognizing that there is a lot that we agree on, but we have to do it together. I want to see regulatory certainty. I want, and ideally, steps towards regulatory harmonization so that a company can go through the process and have it be streamlined in a number of different countries at once, and, I think, financial support again for governments and governments that don't have state-owned enterprises, but to still recognize that nuclear energy number one has a value for national security, has a value for decarbonization, and so I think placing those values on nuclear energy and really seeing it as a national security asset, in the same way that we see a lot of other things, but truly valuing nuclear, I think, is what we need to see in the next year or so.
Speaker 2:Fantastic, emma, and I know our time is almost coming to an end. We can't wait to your next in London. I did say to London we probably can't make the Atlantic Council big summit this year, but we aim to be there in 2026 as a podcast and live broadcast from Washington. That is Max and I's aim for the next 12 months ahead. But, and certainly when you're next in London, we'll show you everything from Wimbledon Village through to Westminster so you can have a great time. But the final thing is that we always feel that everyone has a go at governments, everyone has a go at the companies, but we sometimes feel that needs to be a bit of inspiration on the customer side. What would you ask energy customers to do in the next 12 months?
Speaker 1:So I think that the more that you know about where your energy is coming from, and that's you know if you're a private energy consumer and you want to know you know what happens when you turn the lights on in your house or you just bought a nice new EV, okay, is it being powered by? You know when you charge it. Is that coming from a coal fire plant? Is that coming from a nuclear plant? Like what's the deal? So being aware, and then again, if you're an energy customer like one of these major companies, also being aware of the energy sources that you're using, and so I just think, more knowledge. And actually, if you'll permit me just one quick story, I remember talking to someone who had been a former commissioner at the NRC and he said he was teaching a class and he asked the class where does your energy come from? And somebody said from the wall. And so I think we need to maybe go a step or two beyond from the wall.
Speaker 2:I love it, jennifer. Well, ladies and gentlemen, we've had one of the leading brains of the nuclear world. Not only has Jennifer been in Warsaw recently in Fukushima, but today has called in from Washington to tell us about the hope that is there for the nuclear industry. It is clear for the Wolf Power Club that if you want to do the double and that is energy transition and energy security nuclear is such an obvious answer for every nation to be investing in right now, and it can be done at multiple levels, from the big projects through to the small nuclear reactors. Jennifer, I really thank you for your time today. It's been an absolute indulgence to build on my childhood visits at sizewell and cern to actually hear what's happening now rather than just my fun childhood messages. Jennifer, thank you very much for being a guest on the wolf power club you both.
Speaker 1:So so much, this is wonderful.
